Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.

During Andre Leon Talley's first magazine job alongside Andy Warhol, a fateful meeting with Karl Lagerfeld began a decades-long friendship.

Today's memoir is The Chiffon Trenches by Andre Leon Talley.

Let's meet my guest, Todd Cummings.

Welcome.

Hi, Gail.

How are you today?

I am perfect.

Well, I'm trying to be.

And in any case, it's good to have you back.

Thank you so much for the invitation.

I'm thrilled to be back.

Well, this is--this is an exciting but oftentimes sad book, isn't it?

It is.

It's about food, family and fashion.

Yes.

Three--the three big Fs.

Yes, exactly.

And let's talk about what we're going to prepare before we start discussing the book.

I'm going to do some appetizers as if I were feeding some minor celebrities, because this is not the stuff this or that--that.

It's--it's still--their very nice.

But we're going to do a presentation of assorted appetizers and then we'll have some bubbly, which I like very much.

And because of Andre Leon Talley's connection with his grandmother, I am doing My grandmother's upscaled 'The Devil Wears Prada Eggs' today.

I love that.

'The Devil Wears Prada' eggs.

Perfect.

Well, let's get started.

And then we can--we can talk about the beginning of this young man's life.

Well, now he's near his 70s, but he came from Durham, North Carolina, very poor.

But what do they do on Sundays when they went to church?

It's so fascinating how he talks about how everyone dresses up and puts on their Sunday best.

And while his mother abandoned them to his grandmother and he rarely saw his father, you really begin to see the beginnings of fashion from his grandmother and what she wears to church.

Yes.

And the woman had these beautiful hats and they were so--they were just so elegant.

They--they change personalities on Sunday.

And he loved that feeling.

So I'm going to start-- I'm scooping out little red potatoes and I will put sour cream in them and then I'll top it with some caviar.

Then I'm going to wrap some asparagus with little pieces of ham, and then I'm going to do angel--devils on horseback.

The devils are prunes stuffed with chutney, mango chutney wrapped with bacon.

So.

And you are doing your wonderful--?.

I'm doing--I'm doing 'The Devil Wears Prada' eggs, my grandmother's upscaled recipe.

So I am using pre-hard-boiled eggs because I worked this week to get eggs right.

And I couldn't quite get them right for the show.

So I bought pre- hard-boiled eggs and I'm adding bacon this time, so I'm frying my bacon in the pan.

Well, you know, I think it's a great idea.

Why worry about whether your eggs are green?

Just go to the supermarket and they have to.--You have a bag of eggs.

I have two bags of eggs.

Two bags of eggs.

And it makes it so much easier.

And you have your bacon.

I'm doing bacon, too.

We really like our bacon, don't we?

We do like our bacon.

Well, I think Andre Leon Talley liked bacon as well.

Oh yes.

And more and more as he got older.

So he started life in Durham, North Carolina.

He went to an all black college and then he--he went--had a scholarship to Brown University and his major was French.

And it likely set the stage for him to have the career that he did.

And then from there, a multiple of terrific internships that opened the door for him really into the fashion--into the fashion world.

By the time he was maybe twenty-two, he already knew Karl Lagerfeld.

He knew Andy Warhol.

He knew the doyenne of fashion at the time, Diana Vreeland.

Who was the editor of Vogue.

Editor of Vogue.

And they were--they got along very well.

And when he was able to get along with people, I don't want to say he couldn't get along.

But in the fashion industry, there are really some divas who are not always the nicest people.

If you saw 'Devil Wears Prada', you get you've got the feeling that was supposed to have been a sort of over the top take off.

But he said when he came to work at Vogue, this Anna Wintour was considered a dictator.

Right.

And you really see her imprint on Vogue.

You see the transitions between editors from Diana Vreeland to Anna Wintour and how many editors find out that they've been fired on CNN and how cut-throat of a world that it is.

Well, and the designers, they see each other at parties.

Karl Lagerfeld.

And then you had Yves Saint Lauren and then somebody from Christian Dior, I couldn't keep up with all the changes, but they were always in competition and we're talking about competition for people with money.

And not only was it competition, it was competition for the women who would wear their clothing.

And it was all about creating business by giving gifts.

Oh, yes.

And the candles and the clothing and the Chanel and access to the runway.

I had to have my phone with me during the book so I could look up the designers.

Yeah, I think this is coming along here.

Yeah.

I think so.

I am going to continue scooping out of my potatoes and putting in some sour cream and then I'll top it with the caviar.

And this is really a fun appetizer.

And people think, oh, my goodness, oh, my goodness.

And it's very simple.

It really is.

And if you don't like the idea of caviar, put something else in there.

You could put capers or you don't have to put anything, just the sour cream.

There you go.

Right.

So he--he is working with Andy Warhol.

There are pictures in the book of all these people, these Illuminati.

And--and then he--he does move to Paris.

He's sent to Paris to work with John Fairchild, Women's World Daily.

I remember thumbing through that occasionally.

Again, more of these fashionistas and speaking French was such an opening for him, wasn't it?

That was likely for his career the best major he would have chosen at Brown.

And it opened the doors to Karl Lagerfeld, Yves Saint Laurent.

And to be able to interact with them, hear how their shows are prepared and to become friends with them.

Yes, he loved being in Paris.

I think it was his favorite place.

Of course, the center of power for many of these magazines was New York.

So to go back to New York or to be called back was considered an honor.

I've got to find my cloth here.

Here it is.

And food--and food in France Andre Leon Talley started to become such an important part of what he did, breakfast and dinners.

And it became such an important part of the fashion world.

They were always at restaurants or cocktail parties.

So you had to know what something was.

You just didn't see what's that, you know, and find out.

It was something very simple, like a scooped out little potato.

And he--he just fell right in, didn't he?

Loved it.

And he was clever.

And he--they called on him for his advice on how to dress, some of the women in the fashion world.

And all these women who were the muses of Lagerfeld and Chanel and Oscar de la Renta would always have him at their fittings.

I would have him at their collection, at their selection for the Met gala or whatever event they were going to.

And they really appreciate his taste.

But I think at the end of the day, he was also talented.

He was a great writer.

And he spoke French.

I think both of those things prepared him so well for the career that he had.

I--I was enchanted by how he sailed through some of this.

And as the book moves on and he gets a little older, we find out that it wasn't always easy.

He--he had a good stiff upper lip, but he was easily hurt, wasn't he?

I mean, he really had to work to feel secure.

And his--all that happens because of his childhood.

And he reveals the trauma that he has in the book.

But he always--he always is looking to fit in.

It's almost like he has imposter syndrome, and so he's always figuring out--.

That's a good word, imposter syndrome.

I really shouldn't--I shouldn't be here.

They're going to discover who I really am.

And I think that hovered in his life.

And he's one of the few at the time.

He's one of the few African-Americans in a prominent role in the fashion world.

You know, this is before Amon and Naomi Campbell start to model.

So he's one of the few African-Americans in the top flight of the fashion world.

Well, and he did a lot to help African-Americans into the modeling, and he enjoyed the fabrics from Africa.

He did a lot to encourage that change and to bring in diversity to the fashion world.

I mean, there was a time when you only saw a white face and for a while it was a Scandinavian or a French.

And then they--they started adding Americans and there were then American models.

So, it is competitive, it's high powered, it must have been brilliant when things were going well.

But he was always kind of just waiting, I think, for things to blow up.

I'm sorry--.

I have one more point, but I'm sorry.

I was like he--he used his seat at the table to help other folks, to help women and other African-Americans.

He did.

And we will just take a slight pause as we gather some more ingredients here.

In the meantime, we want to show you some pictures of the young--what's his first name, Andre?

I was thinking Leon, Andre Leon Talley's youth, a very tall man, very handsome.

And we'll be right back.

I am going to put my devils on horseback in the oven.

I'm putting them under the broiler prunes stuffed with mango chutney wrapped in bacon.

So that's what I'm going to do.

What are you up to?

I am pouring champagne for us.

And I thought we'd get to this.

Oh, I'm sorry.

No, no, I'm kidding.

I'm so glad.

And so we have two drink choices today.

You have this in honor of Diana Vreeland.

I brought Dore's 12 year old Scotch that she would keep at her desk drawer.

And so--.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh.

When she was having a day of it--.

a sniff, a sniff--.

If she was having a day of it, she would have a scotch.

And she'd have her friends down in the basement there, Vogue, and they would talk and--.

Little glass and sniff and they would have--have a drink.

Oh, this is lovely.

This.

Oh, my goodness.

Well, we have our--our food ready.

Almost.

Yo're going to stuff your eggs.

I'm going to stuff my 'Devil Wears Prada' eggs and my bacon is done.

And you--you're going to decorate.

Wonderful, absolutely wonderful.

And let's see, I am going to put the caviar on my potatoes here with a little sour cream, little caviar.

And it's a fun appetizer, but a lot of people wonder what in the world the black stuff is.

And there are people that love it and people that just want to stay 10 feet away.

But I love it.

Now, we're getting back to a point in--in Leon--Andre Leon Tally's life, where he's had great success.

He's met people, he's friendly, he's beloved, and he sees some of these designers, their personalities come out and they start--they arn'te starting to treat people poorly.

But he notices it.

He notices it's been a theme.

So how relationships with Yves Saint Laurent end and with Karl Lagerfeld.

And so he's starting to see for himself how these relationships that have really been based on access and gift giving and start to come to an end and either you're friends or you're not.

And he realizes the same thing is likely going to happen to him.

And he even knows during a conversation with Karl Lagerfeld that he's made the wrong move.

And it's true.

Lagerfeld just never talks to him again until much later, maybe five, six years later.

Just completely cuts him out of his life.

Yes.

And it happens as he gets older in the fashion industry and then he starts gaining weight.

He starts to gain weight.

He starts to find himself in food about the same time as his career at Vogue and in the fashion world starts to sunset, I would say.

And so he's forced to deal with his weight and discover what he's going to do nex., and he can't--he really can't deal with his weight.

Anna Wintour sends him to the Duke school.

I've heard of people going to that program where you can lose weight, but he could never release his--his association with food as a comfort to him.

With his grandparents and then his grandmother specifically, and all the trauma he faced in his life and his lack of ever finding love.

He could never let go of that.

And so he starts to compensate by these giant capes and caftans.

And all of his designer friends would design them for him.

And we will have some pictures of those.

They--they look like bedspreads, don't they?

They do.

They're huge with gorgeous and-- And they're mink.

They have mink around the edges.

And that's how he gets around in the world.

Now he's going to present himself, cover himself, but be himself.

But, you know, his life does begin to change.

He has a great--we've got to take a pause here.

Let's take a pause and let's--.

And cheers to you and dinner and a book and all your great success.

And to Andre Leon, we're here for you.

Right?

Cheers.

We are.

Nice.

It's it's--.

I feel very fashionable.

Well, you are very fashionable.

Thank you.

That's nice of you to say.

So anyway, there's the battle, there's the battle of the food.

There are these--there are these relationships that begin to change.

He does get to know Lee Radziwill, the sister of Jackie Kennedy, very well.

Which is such a delicious, scandalous relationship.

Oh, yes.

Well, and we--I didn't know that she and Jackie were such enemies.

Oh, such enemies.

And the fact that, you know, they--they competed.

They were--they competed for the same men.

They competed for the same designers.

Their whole lives were just competitions.

And they were and I think it--this--this was an eye-opener to me.

I didn't realize it was so rugged.

It was so edgy and difficult.

But in any case, this is a world--this is a world that--that we see little bits of it in our daily life, but not to the extent of the fashion world.

So what are we--what are we doing here now?

Oh, well, we are--you're finishing up or are you--?.

I'm finishing my eggs.

I have two more left and then I'm going to put bacon and paprika on top.

Good.

All right.

And I am going to keep my eye on this.

I got talking about a book and I forgot my eggs.

Oh, well, you've got plenty of time.

So we go along with Andre in his life.

And when a relationship ends and I mean a friendly relationship, because Andre could never get close to people, he never really had a relationship with another person.

And he--all of this sort of started happening.

And Anna Wintour is--is nice to him.

But even she starts to pull back, doesn't she?

And she starts to pull back.

And I think it starts to tell a really lovely story about the end of a career, and he's nearing 70, his--he's on the masthead of Vogue, but he starts to create other opportunities.

He goes to create museum pieces at SCAD and he curates, but he really transitions.

And I think he does it well.

He transitions into a whole other career.

Yes.

And it was good.

And he could--he could award every year an honor to a designer that SCAD stands for what?

Savannah?

College of Art and Design.

Yes.

And that's--.

You put me on the spot.

But I got it.

No, but he got it because I didn't remember what it stood for.

But it is an important school.

And he was fundamental in starting it.

They asked him at the right time in his life to come and help with this, and he was delighted.

We have a few minutes.

And you're finishing.

Look at the décor here.

Thank you.

So I'm using my grandmother's crudités plate today and adding bacon.

And then the final step will be paprika.

Well, and this is like a luncheon itself, isn't it?

You could have two served on a little bit of lettuce, a little glass of wine and a nice little piece of chocolate for dessert.

Right.

Wonderful.

So what do you think--what do you think of the fashion industry after reading this book?

I know that's a judgment call, but are you attracted to it or do you find that this-- I really glad I'm in teaching world.

You know, I'm--I'm a teacher by trade, and so I'm happy to do that.

I do think that the clothes are beautiful, I think that it gives us an insight into how can we live our best lives?

So how do we treat ourselves with, you know, and how do we wear the best textiles that we can?

How do we live in as much luxury as we can and with nice things and then to honor those nice things?

But I like being a teacher, but I think that opens the door for students to experience all the things that Andre Leon Talley does.

And I think it's also a really good picture of if you want to do something.

He lays out the groundwork of how to do it, internships, getting your degree, reading his encyclopedic knowledge of fashion.

He's a pro.

He is a pro.

But he also listened to the best in the business.

And they--he didn't--he--he actually learned all of this on the job, a lot of it.

And from Karl, who had an expansive history of sense of history for architecture and style and fabrics.

So.

I think you're right, you could--you can plan something if it doesn't work out, just take a little detour and go with some of the talents you've-- you have gathered and go on to something else.

I'm doing full cycle here.

I used to teach literature in college.

and here I'm going full cycle.

I am now able to do dinner and a book which is fabulous.

And you're a Michiana legend hosting dinner and a book.

Oh, wrap this up quickly, right?

So we finished here.

We're going to put everything together and show you some wonderful pictures of Andre in his caftans with his working friends.

And we invite you to join us.

We'll be right back.

Today, our book has been The Chiffon Trenches by Andre Leon Talley.

My guest has been school superintendent.

Mr.

Here.

He came again this year.

I'm so flattered.

Thank you for having me back.

Todd Cummings is just a joy to have and thank you for coming.

It was fun, wasn't it?

It was fun.

This was a great--it was a great opportunity.

Thank you for inviting me again.

I hope I get to come back.

You're always a great host.

Yes,oh no.

You're just--you have so much knowledge and insight and you like to cook and-- well, every year.

A little more.

A little more.

I'm getting better.

So I made some sour cream potatoes with caviar.

I wrapped some cooked, very gently cooked asparagus in ham slices.

And then I did the devils on horseback.

I stuffed prunes with mango chutney and wrapped it with bacon and put it in the oven under the broiler for about six minutes and tell us what you did.

I made a take on my grandmother's Devil Wears Prada eggs for using her crudites plate today.

And I upscaled by adding bacon.

Yes.

Oh, yes.

I haven't had it that way and I'm going to try it.

I think it's a great idea.

And of course, we have the accouterments that we found in the book.

So we have some cava.

Spanish cava sparkling over here.

And I just loved the bottle.

I mean, it just sparkling.

And then you brought in honor of Diana Vreeland, who would keep a bottle of Scotch in her desk drawer.

We brought a twelve year old bottle of Dewars today.

Yes.

So we're all set, aren't we?

Well, I have to say, I enjoyed the book.

I--it made me realize I could never, ever go into the fashion industry.

You have to have such a strong sense of self.

What did you find what did you take away from this book?

Well, I loved his encyclopedic knowledge about clothing.

I think at the end of the day, as he transitioned to career--through careers, he never talks about retirement.

And so even now, he's on to something else.

And I just found that an inspiring way to live, even as I think about my own retirement now, it's not stopping.

It's moving and transitioning into something else.

And it is you just need to have interests and take advantage of everything you can learn and meet people who are intelligent.

And take the opportunity to get to know them.

Yes, exactly.

It's been a joy having you again.

Oh, thank you so much.

It's been an honor.

Thank you for coming.

It's been so much fun.

And thank you for joining us.

Remember, good food, good friends, good books, make for a very good life.

We'll see you next time.

This WNIT local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.

Dinner and a book is supported by the Rex and Alice A. Martin Foundation of Elkhart, celebrating the spirit of Alice Martin and her love of good food and good friends.