AND MICHAEL LEWIS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK, "BLOCKERS," LOOKS AT ELON MUSK'S ATTEMPT THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, DOGE, TO REMAKE THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY.

FIRST OF ALL, WHY DID THAT STORTY APPEAL TO YOU?

>> A LITTLE BIT OF A BACK STORY.

I'D WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IT SEEMED TO ME LARGELY A STORY OF INDIFFERENCE AND NEGLECT AND GOT ME INTO CIVIL SERVICE.

ONCE I STARTED KICKING AROUND OBSCURE DEPARTMENTS OF GOVERNMENT LIKE I KNOW LIKE DEPARTMENTS OF AGRICULTURE OR ENERGY, I WAS SHOCKED BOTH BY JUST HOW INTERESTING WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE THEM WAS BUT ALSO PEOPLE.

AND SO I HAD THIS SENSE THAT, LIKE, I KNOW AS IMPLAUSIBLE AS IT SOUNDS THAT CIVIL SERVANTS WERE A GOLD MINE OF CHARACTERS.

AND TRUMP TWO COMES IN, AND THEY COME IN WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AGENDA, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPIRIT.

THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY --I MEAN, WHATEVER THEY SAID IT WAS A MASSIVE POWER GRAB, AND IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO REMAKE THIS 2 MILLION-PERSON NONPARTISAN WORK FORCE INTO ESSENTIALLY A LOYALIST OPERATION THAT SERVED THE --NOT THE CONSTITUTION BUT THE INTEREST OF A SINGLE PERSON.

I THOUGHT THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING.

WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN IS GOING TO SEE CHANGE THE INCENTIVES INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT THAT THE ACTUAL FUNCTIONS OF GOVERNMENT ARE GOING TO CHANGE.

HOW DO YOU TELL THAT STORY?

LIKE --AND DOGE FOR ME WAS REALLY JUST KIND OF THE BEGINNING OF IT.

I MEAN DOGE IS THE FIRST 80 PAGES OF THE BOOK OR WHATEVER, BUT DOGE, AS YOU KNOW, GOES AWAY.

AND I THOUGHT OF DOGE AS KIND OF LIKE A SMOKE SCREEN FOR A DEEPER AGENDA.

>> WHAT IS A BLOCKER?

THAT'S THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

>> YOU OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ASK THAT QUESTION, BUT THE BLOCKER IS MUSK AND IT'S ALSO SILICON VALLEY'S FAVORITE TERM FOR SOMEONE AN EXISTING INSTITUTION WHO IS, LIKE, GETTING IN YOUR WAY WHEN YOU WANT TO MOVE IN AND MOVE FAST AND BREAK THINGS.

AND MUSK TOLD THE 25-YEAR-OLD MAN HE SENT OUT TO WREAK HAVOC INSIDE THE VARIOUS FEDERAL AGENCIES.

HE SAID FIND THE BLOCKERS, FIND THE BLOCKERS AND I'LL ELIMINATE THEM.

AND NOT ALL OF MY CHARACTERS BUT MOST OF MY CHARACTERS MET THE DEFINITION OF BLOCKER.

BUT MOSTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS JUST NOT REFUSING --IT WAS REFUSING TO BREAK THE LAW.

I MEAN, THEY WEREN'T IMPEDING SOMETHING THAT WAS LEGAL.

THEY WERE LIKE TRYING TO STOP --I DON'T KNOW --THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY FROM USING TAX RETURNS AS WEAPONS.

THEY WERE DOING THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SWORE AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY SWORE AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE LAW, AND THEY WERE BLOCKING FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

>> THERE'S A STORY ESPECIALLY NEAR THE END OF YOUR BOOK THAT JUST BLOWS ME AWAY, WHICH IS ABOUT A WATER FOUNTAIN.

TELL ME THAT STORY AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM IT.

>> WELL, AS A FELLOW WRITER, WALTER, SOMETIMES YOU KNOW A WATER FOUNTAIN ISN'T JUST A WATER FOUNTAIN.

SO THERE WAS A CHARACTER IN DOGE NAMED SAHILL OF INDIA, AND SAHILL DREW MY ATTENTION AND THE ATTENTION OF A NUMBER OF JOURNALISTS EARLY ON BECAUSE HE'D COME IN AND HE LOOKED DIFFERENT.

HE WAS IN HIS EARLY 30s.

HE'D MADE HIS MONEY.

HE'D COME BECAUSE HE REALLY WANTED TO FIX SOMETHING IN THE GOVERNMENT.

HE WANTED TO FIX THE IRS' TECHNOLOGY, AND INSTEAD HE GETS SHOVED IN THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION, AND HE'S TOLD TO CUT CONTRACTS, AND HE KICKS AROUND INSIDE THE PLACE.

AND HE MAKES THE MISTAKE OF TELLING A JOURNALIST THAT ACTUALLY THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT AS INEFFICIENT AS I THOUGHT IT WAS, AND THAT AND A COUPLE OTHER THINGS GET HIM FIRED FROM DOGE.

HE THEN -- AFTER DOGE WASHES OUT, HE THEN IS INVITED BACK IN, AND HE COMES BACK IN TO DO THE THING HE WANTED TO DO.

AND HE GETS PUT INTO A BUILDING IN LOWER MANHATTAN THAT IS WHERE THE IRS OFFICES ARE, AND IT'S LIKE A NUCHREN BOMB HIT.

THERE'S NO ONE THERE.

THERE'S A LOT OF POSSESSIONS LEFT BEHIND.

IT'S AS DEDEPRESSING AS AN OFFICE DEBE.

AND HE GOES OUT TO GET A DRINK FROM A WATER FOUNTAIN AND IT DOESN'T WORK, AND HE GOES ON HIS OBSESSIVE QUEST TO FIX A GOVERNMENT WATER FOUNTAIN, AND IT TAKES MONTHS.

AND TAKES MONTHS, AND IT BECOMES A METAPHOR FOR HOW HARD IT IS FOR SOMEONE TO DO ANYTHING IN THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE DIFFERENT BOXES YOU NEED TO CHECK.

BUT IT IS --HE DOES FIX IT, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A METAPHOR FOR A COUPLE OF THINGS, NOT JUST IT'S HARD TO DO THINGS IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

AND, YES, IT'S TOO HARD TO DO THINGS.

BUT THE KIND OF FIXES TO THOSE PROBLEMS ARE IN THE CONGRESS.

CONGRESS NEEDS TO DO STUFF.

BUT I THOUGHT SAHILL'S STORY WAS A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE OF PUBLIC SPIRIT, LIKE THIS INTEREST IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

HE DIDN'T JUST LOOK AND SAY THIS IS A PAIN AND I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT, IT'S BENEATH ME OR ANY OF THAT.

HE SAID I'M GOING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THIS.

AND ONCE I FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THIS, I WOULD HAVE FIGURED OUT HOW TO FIX A LOT MORE THAN THIS.

>> SO WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT A WATER FOUNTAIN?

WHY WAS IT SO HARD, AND WHAT DID THEY DO?

>> WHAT'S FUNNY I THINK A LOT OF THINGS ARE LIKE THE WATER FOUNTAIN.

IT'S LIKE NO ONE EXACTLY IS IN CHARGE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE YOU CAN CALL.

NO ONE PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE WAS IN THIS CASE.

SO BUT HE WAS --HE WAS ON THE LINE TO PEOPLE IN SEATTLE, PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON, AND NEVER MIND THE PEOPLE INSIDE HIS OWN BUILDING WHO WERE MEANT TO BE THE MAINTENANCE PEOPLE.

SO I DO THINK THAT --I MEAN, IT ISN'T JUST THE --ALL MY CHARACTERS I THINK TO A PERSON IN THE BOOK AT SOME POINT HAVE SOME PROBLEM THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THAT IS --THE PROBLEM IS LARGER.

QUICK EXAMPLE.

ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IS A GREEK IMMIGRANT WHO INVENTS AN ENTIRE FIRE SCIENCE AND THE SCIENCE OF WILD AND URBAN INTERFACE FIRES.

IT'S THE FIRES WE ALL TALK ABOUT NOW.

AND HE'S BEEN ON IT FOR 25 YEARS, AND IT'S RIVETING THE WORK HE'S DONE.

TO DO THE WORK HE NEEDS TO USE THE BIG FIRE LAB THAT'S INSIDE OF AN ORGANIZATION CALLED THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY.

HE'S ABLE TO DO THIS WORK BECAUSE HE RUNS THE LAB, AND HE CAN KIND OF --HE CAN SET THINGS ON FIRE IN BETWEEN WHEN THE LAB'S FREE.

UNTIL --I MEAN, HE STARTS THIS WORK IN 2003.

BUT UNTIL 2008 WHEN THERE IS A COMPLETELY UNRELATED ACCIDENT IN ANOTHER LAB, GOVERNMENT LAB IN COLORADO --WHICH LEADS TO A CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION AND ALL THESE RULES PASSED.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO BEFORE YOU CAN DO AN EXPERIMENT.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE HAS TO HAVE SIX SIGNATURES BEFORE HE CAN GO INTO HIS LAB AND SET A FIRE.

AND I THINK IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE WAY --THE WAY OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN MANAGED JUST GENERALLY FOR A LONG TIME IT'S SORT OF LIKE IT'S DESIGNED TO PREVENT ANYBODY FROM BEING EMBARRASSED OR FROM ACCIDENTS FROM HAPPENING BUT AT A COST.

AT A COST IT IS HARDER --IT'S HARDER TO DO THINGS.

THESE ARE --THESE ARE REAL THINGS TO ATTACK.

I MEAN, THESE ARE THINGS THAT A DOGE COULD HAVE ATTACKED, AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERESTING.

BUT IT WOULD REQUIRED GOING TO CONGRESS, AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE ANY INTEREST IN THAT.

>> YOU PROFILE ALEX AND THERE'S AN ODD CONNECTION TO THE CABINET, TO HOWARD LUTNICK.

EXPLAIN --THAT SEEMED LIKE A LARGER METAPHOR FOR SOME OF THE PROBLEMS YOU TALKED ABOUT, TOO.

>> ON THE BACK END WAS THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, 9/11.

HE'D BEEN BROUGHT IN TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE TWIN TOWERS FELL BECAUSE NO ONE THOUGHT THE FIRES COULD GET AS HIGH AS THEY DID.

HE HAD RECONSTRUCTED THE TRADE TOWERS AND SHOWN HOW THE HEAT MELTED AND KIND OF THING.

AND THERE WAS A FACT TO THE POIGNANCY THAT HOWARD LUTNICK GETS MADE SECRETARY OF CONGRESS INSIDE THIS MIST SITS AND HOWARD LUTNICK HAD BEEN THE HEAD OF CANADA FAITS GERALD, WHOSE FIRM WHOSE ALL EMPLOYEES HAD DIED INCLUDING HOWERED LUTNICK'S BROTHER WHEN THE TOWERS COLLAPSED.

SO HOWARD HAD TO BASICALLY COMPLAIN TO HIS HIS OLD FIRM.

WHEN HE COMES INTO AND MAKES HISCIENCE UNDO-ABLE, CREDIT CARDS TAKEN AWAY.

IF YOU WANT TO SPEND $10,000 ON ANYTHING, I'VE GOT TO PERSONALLY APPROVE IT.

I'M NOT GOING TO BE AROUND TO PROVE IT BECAUSE I'M IN THE WHITE HOUSE ALL THE TIME.

IT JUST GOT --AND ALEX YOU TALK TO THESE PEOPLE --THESE ARE NOT NORMAL.

WHATEVER PEOPLE'S PICTURE IN THEIR HEAD OF BUREAUCRAT.

ALEX WAS WORKING 80 HOURS A WEEK DOING JAMES BOND CRAZY THINGS INSIDE OF FIRES, EXPERIMENTS THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND.

HE IS AN OBSESSED PERSON, AND HE'S BEEN AN OBSESSED PERSON FOR DECADES.

AND HE'S EXHAUSTED.

HE'S 56 YEARS OLD.

IT'S HARD ALREADY BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT IS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE LOOKS UP AND HE SAYS I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST --HE'S MADE IT TOO HARD.

AND IT'S SUCH A WASTE OF TALENT AND ENERGY AND THIS SORT OF MISSION-DRIVEN APPROACH TO LIFE TO NOT --INSTEAD OF GETTING BEHIND THEM AND HELPING THEM LIKE TRYING TO CREATE A STRUCTURE WHERE THEY CAN DO THEIR THING, TO TREAT THEM WITH SUSPICION AND CONTEMPT AND ANGER AND ALL THAT STUFF, IT'S SO COUNTER PRODUCTIVE.

SO ALEX IS, YOU KNOW, PREPPING HIS SAILBOAT TO SAIL BACK TO GREECE WHERE HE CAME FROM.

BUT TOUCHINGLY, LIKE, HE QUIT IN MAYBE JUNE OF LAST YEAR.

FOR THE LAST YEAR HE'S KEPT ALL OF HIS GOVERNMENT LAPTOPS AND STUFF, AND HE'S BEEN TRYING -- WORKING FOR FREE TO TRY TO GET SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE --PRESERVE SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT.

>> ONE OF THE GREAT STORIES ABOUT "BLOCKERS" IS THE U. S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENS THERE.

>> WELL, THIS IS --YOU KNOW, IT OPENS THE BOOK.

AND IT OPENS THE BOOK BECAUSE THE INSTITUTE I'D NEVER HEARD.

I'D WRITTEN THE FIFTH RISK ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHO IS GOVERNMENT, ABOUT A BUNCH OF CIVIL SERVANTS.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME KICKING AROUND THE GOVERNMENT, AND I'D NEVER HEARD OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

AND THEN I READ IN THE NEWSPAPER THAT DOGE IS INVADING THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

AND I FELT LIKE HOW'D I MISS THIS, WHAT IS THIS PLACE?

AND IT'S ONE OF LIKE MANY CONGRESSIONALLY CHARTERED INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE ONLY QUASI GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS.

MOVING AWAY AND TAKING AWAY THEIR MONEY IS LIKE TAKING AWAY YOUR HOUSE.

SO I OPEN THE BOOK THERE BECAUSE TO ME IT SUGGESTED THIS NEW APPROACH TO GOVERNMENT, THAT TRUMP ONE WAS ABOUT, LIKE, I DON'T CARE WHAT'S IN THE GOVERNMENT.

IT'LL TAKE ME AN HOUR TO FIGURE IT OUT AND, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.

TRUMP TWO IS ABOUT NOT JUST RUNNING IT LIKE WITH --EITHER IN A RUTHLESS NEW WAY, BUT RUNNING PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT YOU WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOSED TO RUN.

LIKE THE PRESIDENT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE IS SORT OF BE AT ARMS LENGTH OF THE GOVERNMENT SO IT FUNCTION SORT OF ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES AND SORT OF NOT.

SO THEY CAN GO IN AND --I DON'T KNOW --TALK TO THE TALIBAN AND THE TALIBAN ISN'T EXACTLY TALKING TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

SO THE OTHER THING THAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT THE INVASION OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE ASIDE FROM THE INVASION OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE BEING KIND OF A FUNNY IDEA WAS THE GUY SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THE BUILDING -- HIS NAME IS O'BRIEN, A FORMER LINEBACKER, TOUGH GUY, A SHREWD GUY, AND HE MADE THE POINT YOU DON'T --THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A VIOLENT ACT.

IT SEEMS LIKE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN SUITS TAKING OVER A BUILDING.

BUT IF YOU LOOKED AT WHAT HAPPENED --WHAT HAPPENED THEY GOT THE GUNS FIRST.

THAT WE THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE, WE HAD A SECURITY DETAIL WITH LOTS OF GUNS IN THE BASEMENT.

DOGE CALLED THE SECURITY COMPANY AND SAID IF YOU DON'T FLIP AND WORK WITH US INSTEAD OF AGAINST US, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR STATE DEPARTMENT CONTRACT.

SO THEY FLIPPED THOSE GUNS.

COLLIN IS REALLY GOOD AT SORT OF THE CAT AND MOUSE GAME OF KEEPING THE BUILDING.

WHEN HIS OWN SECURITY FORCE COMES IN AND TRIES TO TAKE THE BUILDING FROM HIM, HE HERMETICALLY SEALS A PART OF THE BUILDING AND THEY'RE LOCKED.

THEY'RE, LIKE, TRAPPED IN THE BUILDING, HE CALLS THE D. C. POLICE TO COME AND GET THEM FOR TRESPASSING.

D. C. POLICE AND THEIR GUNS HAVE BEEN FLIPPED TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

NO, THE WORLD HAD CHANGED AND ALL THE GUNS WERE POINTED AT HIM.

HIS POINT WAS LIKE YOU DON'T REALLY THINK ABOUT THE GUNS, BUT WHO HAS THE GUNS IS ACTUALLY A PRETTY IMPORTANT THING.

AND THEY WERE AWARE OF IT.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER ONES INVOLVES KATHLEEN WATERS, AND SHE WAS AT THE IRS, AND IT WAS A QUESTION ABOUT GIVING IRS DATA, ABOUT UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, AND GIVING OUT THEIR ADDRESS SO THAT THERE COULD BE ENFORCEMENT AGAINST THEM.

>> SO KATHLEEN WALTERS WAS THE CHIEF PRIVACY OFFICER OF THE IRS.

AND THAT MEANT SHE IS THE HUMAN BEING BETWEEN YOUR TAX RETURN AND ANY WHITE HOUSE THAT MIGHT SEEK TO WEAPONIZE AGAINST YOU.

SOON AFTER THE INAUGURATION SHE STARTS TO GET PRESSURED FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO RELEASE A DATABASE OF 7 MILLION RETURNS ON UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS.

AND THIS DATABASE, IT WAS A -- IN THE 1990s CONGRESS CREATED A MECHANISM FOR UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS TO PAY TAXES.

I MEAN, I DIDN'TVEN KNOW THIS EXISTED BUT IT'S INTERESTING.

MORE THAN $100 MILLION OF TAXES WERE COLLECTED FROM THIS POPULATION.

AND THE IRS AND THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT HAVE TOLD THIS POPULATION, LIKE, YOU'RE GOING TO FILE THIS TAX RETURN AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS.

WE KNOW YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE, BUT THIS IS A WAY FOR YOU TO ESTABLISH YOU'RE PART OF THE SOLUTION AND NOT PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND THE --THAT DATABASE HAD THE MOST RECENT MOST CURRENT HOME ADDRESS OF THESE PEOPLE.

AND I. C. E.

--SOMETHING CALLED THE I. C. E. INNOVATION LAB INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, FIGURED OUT IF THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON THIS THEY COULD RAID PEOPLE'S HOMES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

AND KATHLEEN SAID THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW.

IT ENDS UP COSTING HER HER JOB, AND SHE AFTER DECADES IN THE IRS.

AND NO ONE EVER THOUGHT SHE WAS PARTISAN OR NOT GOOD AT HER JOB OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SHE WAS JUST STANDING ON PRINCIPLE.

AND SOME NUMBER OF THOSE RETURNS GOT HANDED OVER TO I. C. E. WHETHER IT WAS 48,000 OR 7 MILLION NOBODY KNOWS.

BUT PEOPLE - - AROUND THE COUNTRY PEOPLE WERE ROUNDED UP USING THOSE RETURNS.

>> DOES THAT MAKE IT LESS LIKELY THAT THESE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WILL PAY TAXES AND THAT'LL END UP REDUCING TAXES?

>> OH, I THINK -- I THINK MORE THAN THAT.

FOR SURE THAT'S TRUE.

LIKE, FOR SURE IF ALL OF A SUDDEN WORD IS OUT IN THE COMMUNITY IF YOU FILE A TAX RETURN, THEY'RE GOING TO COME AND FIND YOU.

SURE IT'S GOING TO HIT TAX REVENUE, BUT IT'S MORE THAN THAT.

THE GOVERNMENT COLLECTS ALL KINDS OF DATA THAT IS --AND IT'S A MASSIVE DATA COLLECTION MACHINE.

IT'S AMAZING WHAT THE GOVERNMENT COUNTS.

AND IT ENABLES US TO GET A PICTURE OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN.

IT ENABLES PEOPLE TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE DATA OR ECONOMIC STATISTICS OR WHATEVER.

AND IF ALL OF A SUDDEN DATA THAT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE WEAPONIZED GETS WEAPONIZED, I THINK IT POLLUTES, CORRUPTS THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO GET A PICTURE OF THE SOCIETY.

I MEAN, I THINK THIS -- THIS LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE THING -- MIGHT EVEN PLEASE SOME PEOPLE.

OH, GOOD, ROUND UP THOSE PEOPLE.

BUT, IF, IN FACT, YOU CAN'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT WITH YOUR DATA, THEN WE GOT A WAY BIGGER PROBLEM THAN UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS NOT PAYING THEIR TAXES.

>> MICHAEL LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>