[music] I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

I'm delighted to welcome our guest today, Chris Fitch.

He's author of the tremendous new book, Wild Cities Discovering New Ways of Living in the Modern Urban Jungle.

Welcome, Chris.

Hello.

How are you doing today?

I'm well, I'm well, you're coming to us from Lisbon.

Is Lisbon one of those wild cities?

Lisbon is wild in some ways and has got lots of ways to improve in other ways.

If anyone's looked at a map of the city or maybe flown in to the airport, you see there's a giant urban forest that's very impressive.

And that's the story I like to tell to people who come visit here.

But, there's plenty of work that can be done in other areas.

So let's start with the basics.

What, in your definition, is a wild city?

And why did you seek to illuminate them in the book?

Yeah.

So the idea of a green city is maybe not a new thing, but I found myself thinking that lots of people talk about the idea of a green city, and it means all sorts of different things because you can be talking about renewable energy, or you can be talking about politics or, you know, there's a huge variety, recycling.

And I really wanted to focus on nature and ecology because that's what I found myself missing from lots of cities that I knew that I was spending my life in, and I was looking for examples of cities in the world that were doing what I thought was a really impressive job of bringing some form of ecology into the city.

And I use the word wild because I like the idea that it's in some way outside of human control, you know, not something that's really beautifully landscaped necessarily, but actually there's some spice and some magic that there's something that's beyond, human hands.

How many of these stories were the result of human intervention to bring that ecology into the city versus the ecology existing and shining a new light on it, or just nurturing it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great question.

I haven't run the numbers exactly, but it's a nice mix of.

Yes, sometimes recognizing that there is more nature and ecology in the city than people would think.

And that can be everything from microbes in the soil to, you know, wildflowers and, little pocket parks and urban forests up to, you know, birds, and insects, and certainly in the US there, you've got lots of, larger animals that managed to make their way into the city.

But even here in Europe, more than, perhaps people would expect and recognizing there's already more here than people realize.

And let's celebrate that.

Let's find some way to make it accessible to people, but with like, less conflict, which is often the problem that you get.

And then, yes, I also wanted to highlight some quite kind of, imaginative and ambitious people in some of the different cities I went to where they've actually had an idea, maybe a social program, or some way of bringing nature into the city where it wasn't before.

And, you know, we can get into this however much you want, but there's sort of different principles that I started to recognize around how people were doing that.

Certainly looking at things like native biodiversity, you know, and, not to get too much into the idea of invasive species because that's, you know, that can be complicated depending on exactly what species you're talking about, but certainly a recognition that, a lot of plants and animals, you know, evolved in a certain environment and had a sort of, balance.

So to prioritize that and also some sort of protected spaces, many little national parks, if you will, inside the city, just to kind of create a little bit of separation from where people are and again, try to reduce the conflict that gets everyone all mad and turns them against these kinds of ideas.

What were the examples that come to mind, Chris, where you believe that the infusion of ecology, contributed to, a greater resilience, not just of the geography itself, but of the people increasing the well-being of the people.

Who inhabit that place.

I mean, I would, that's a thread that runs through the entire book.

I'm going to try to, jump on one -example off the top of my head.

-In other words, if you were if you were to live somewhere other than Lisbon, -because you already said -Yeah.

Lisbon demonstrates this to some extent.

But you want to practice what you preach, or in this case, live out what you illuminate.

-Where would you go?

-Yeah.

Well, I will start by picking on, let's say, Wellington, the capital of New Zealand, which was one of the early inspirations behind putting this book together, because a lot of the places that I visited, where I went to conduct my interviews, were places I'd already been for some different reason.

And, you know, Wellington was one of those where I spent enough time there and I'd spoken to enough people and read about the science.

I thought, oh, there's a real interesting story here if I start putting these things together.

So the basic story with Wellington is that, like the rest of New Zealand, it was colonized, you know, let's say 250 years ago when the Europeans started arriving.

And with the colonists, they brought all of these, mammals, primarily from Europe, rats and other, rodents, which there are no mammals in New Zealand, with the exception of one bat, there are no mammals.

So all the birds there had evolved in a world where they didn't have to fear being eaten, essentially, which is why you get these ground birds like the kiwi is a very famous example.

So, it didn't take very long for all of these native birds to get eradicated.

And this is, by and large, the modern New Zealand experience that you don't have all of these crazy, unique mix of birds that used to be there.

So what's happened in Wellington is an attempt to just have a microscopic little example of bringing that back.

And there's this amazing place called Zealandia, which is, an old reservoir that was cordoned off, special fence put around it.

They eradicated all of the mammals inside.

And because of the fence and sort of these rangers that go round, they essentially keep all the mammals out and it becomes this little haven where all of these birds that didn't exist essentially in the lives of people who live in Wellington or almost anywhere in the country now it's become almost, a daily part of their day to day life, because these birds have a place, a safe place in which they can breed.

And then there's this thing called the halo effect, where they then, move out of these, this safe space, and they go into all the neighborhoods, around it.

So there's a whole load of science around the benefits of, for example, birdsong.

Like, why is it beneficial to have birds in our lives, you can talk about seed distribution.

There's a whole big, you know, pile of academia that I won't get into right now.

But I think the point is that if you were in Wellington in, let's say, the 90s, it's kind of a point that a lot of people I interviewed would reference back to maybe their childhood.

They would say, oh, I just, these species, I would never see them.

There's, one called like, for example, a Tui, which has this amazing call that I'm not even going to attempt to recreate, but people compare it to R2-D2, if that gives you any reference as to what this bird sounds like.

And it was in no way part of people's lives.

And now I saw them like in the downtown, like on the high street, essentially outside the main government building.

They have taken over the city again and ecologically that's amazing.

But also, I think it's a national bird that is suddenly part of people's lives again.

So there's some sort of national pride and local pride.

That's the first example that comes to my mind.

But, yeah, a lot of the book was about finding these positive stories and trying to tell them in as few words as I can just try to get the message across.

And you're adept at analyzing this because you grew up at least partially in rainforests.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So.

-What was that like?

So my mum was a diplomat working for the British government, and so, mid 90s we went off to the Solomon Islands.

I mean, I was six years old when we did that.

And, Solomon Islands, maybe most famous for the Battle of Guadalcanal during the Second World War.

I know JFK was stationed out there.

And a lot of his heroics were kind of, publicized afterwards.

So, yeah, I grew up on these tropical islands.

And when you are six, seven, eight, nine years old, you don't really treat that as strange in any way.

It was just what your life is.

But I think they have quite formative years.

And it gave me, perhaps a flavor of how much nature can be in your life.

I'm still, you know, I'm an amateur psychologist, still, you know, thinking about what impact this time had on me.

But if I compare it to, a few years later when we moved back to the UK, found ourselves, you know, on the outside of London again, the UK is one of the most, nature negative countries like the amount that, plants and animals have been eradicated, the native species that should be there and have been removed.

So finding myself back in this place where there was suddenly a complete, you know, huge drop off in my life, in what I was experiencing on a day to day basis of nature experiences and again, huge pile of science around how this like passive exposure to nature is good for health and happiness.

I think that's what gave me this feeling when I grew up and, you know, started conducting professional journalism, that this is something I want to look at again, because clearly it had this impact on me as a child.

And yeah, I feel like this is something that maybe I can share with people who didn't have the privilege of having this experience as a child, maybe don't even recognize the, sorry, just to go on one more thing.

There's this principle called the shifting baseline theory, which essentially says that, because there's this sort of degradation of nature around the world when we're young, whatever we experience, we consider as normal.

But with each generation we see a new normal.

And it's less, nature rich than what our ancestors would have known.

So I sort of had a weird throwback where I experience something that you wouldn't expect someone, coming of my generation, coming from the UK to experience and actually was able to use that as a leaping off point for, you know, how can I explore this further.

You've reported from New Zealand, as you say, South Korea, Brazil and Portugal.

Of course, you spent time in the UK, in the States as well.

I have to ask in relation to your comment just now.

There was a period, where our eyes were wide open, coming out of Covid, or at least being vaccinated and then reengaging, with the nature and the humanity.

What we were able to do in that year period when we were not vaccinated and sheltering in place, quarantining or isolating to some degree or another, is a whole new world of nature.

How much of that, perspective do you think has endured?

Since things have, fully normalized, at least in our minds.

And how much of it is a permanent outgrowth of Covid?

This is actually a question I've been asking myself, that maybe it's something I want to write about because I had started seeing I mean, you know, how slowly science moves, but I have started seeing some publications coming out where they have run some long term, observations or experimentation.

I don't remember the exact details, but, observing people's attitudes and recognition of nature in their lives, kind of before, during, and after the pandemic.

I mean, I don't remember the exact details, but I've definitely seen some that happens to be running at the time when the pandemic happened and this sort of a very, convenient, way for them to measure then, like how, what people were thinking about this subject, as the whole world came crashing down.

I mean, the CliffsNotes version is that, yes, people were, as I suppose, you and everyone heard anecdotally that it was a moment where people came to have more appreciation of nature in their lives.

Perhaps because of this limitation of other things that we're able to do, the anxiety that a lot of people would have been feeling and again, mountain of scientific literature showing about the impact of nature as a way to reduce anxiety in people's lives.

But you ask a very good point of how much of that endured.

And now I'm going off into my own speculation.

I would say maybe not so much.

Definitely, when I was first proposing the book as something I wanted to write about, and I'm speaking to publishers and agents, you know, the way that this kind of thing normally unfolds, it was a period in that immediate post-pandemic era where people were really, still had it in their mind.

And it was, I was getting this very positive message of, oh, okay, we're going into a new era now where people are going to be thinking more about this.

And, you know, this book can be there at just the right time, to help them, you know, continue their journey into, you know, how do I engage more with nature in my daily life when I also have the options of everything else that's going on in society?

So, yes, pure speculation, but I would say, you know, it's a message that needs to be reinforced and I forget, I am someone who sometimes has my moments of anxiety and I feel my, I can feel the tension in my body.

And it's not because I'm actually in danger.

I'm not being attacked by a wild animal or something.

I'm just, you know, it's just daily life, like modern life is loud and there's bright lights and, physiologically, we haven't changed that much since 200,000 years ago when, you know, we didn't have all of this, artificial lighting.

And, you know, it's just a completely different world that our caveman bodies are supposed to be, trying to survive in.

And then I have moments where I will go to one of these urban forests that I'm very lucky to have quite near to me here in Lisbon.

And I suddenly feel so much better.

And just sitting there for five minutes, you go, what was I so worried about?

Why am I letting myself get so worked up about things that actually it's really not a big deal?

But then I forget, the whole cycle will go around again, and I think this is something that I don't think I'm alone in this, so many times I will see some version of the social media post or that a comment from someone that, oh, I'm feeling stressed, I'm feeling anxious, and I'm wondering if I should get some medication.

And then I went for a five minute walk, you know, down a nice street or by the coast or by a river or whatever is near to you.

And then they say, actually I feel fine now.

I'm not saying all problems can be solved with nature, but it's a very important factor.

The hook that my whole book is on is this concept of biophilia, this kind of innate love of nature and that's kind of my starting point, that nature is good for us.

It makes us feel better.

It's good for our health in so many ways.

It's good for us.

And I then wanted to ask these questions about, okay, most people live in cities, so how do we bring that into the lives of normal people who aren't going out to remote, amazing places that has nature?

And the more that we can remember this importance of biophilia, the better.

But I'm not, I don't want to lecture anyone because I forget as much as anyone else.

No, I think it's enticing and persuasive.

The way you present it most of us have a proximity to something whether like you say pond, lake, river, ocean, mountain.

Because it doesn't have to be, if I can say, doesn't have to be greenery and vegetation, which is what I'm talking about.

Of course, the concept of awe which is little less ecological, but it has the same sense of putting our lives in perspective and helping deal with psychological issues.

Can be, is also very important.

If you're in a city that we happen to have views of mountains, for example, or you're in a very dry environment where not a huge amount of vegetation is going to grow, but you can still have views and landscapes.

It can have a similar psychological impact, and still something we can think about.

Right.

Right.

Of course.

I asked you about laypeople and their renewed appreciation of nature.

And then maybe the extent to which that has gone by the wayside, or at least reverted back to whatever the pre 2020 appreciation of nature was, you know, which is apparent to some people and not to others, but how much of the ecological, infusion in the cities that you describe in the book required the approval of the populations, the actions or behavior of the elected officials governing those -places in -Yeah.

in partnership with the people.

How much of that was a prerequisite for actually getting that accomplished?

Yeah.

Basically always, it basically every case study I looked at and I should point out that the examples I choose, were selected on the basis of, you know, I wanted some thematic spread, geographical spread, obviously good interesting stories to read about.

So it's not like it's a scientific, selection of cities, but nevertheless, the ones that I did look at, I was able to glance over the stories and kind of the macro, process that they each went through and almost every time you have this meeting of someone wants to make something happen.

And often it's just a very, I don't want to say extroverted, but, you know, a big ideas person from a community or a business who is thinking, yeah, I think, there is something we can do to make the city be more natural, or to return to what we talked about before.

I think we can do something to recognize better what is already here.

And people starting these little grass roots programs where maybe it's a little tour, you know, or it's a social media account.

It could very simple little things that start to get the ball rolling.

And then you need the sympathetic, powers that be who can provide, you know, funding and move things in terms of regulations and then when you get these ideas coming together, then you get sort of quite transformative projects happening where you can say, oh, yeah, like you can make, a lot of change happen.

You make a very good, observation talking about communities, because I think this is something that has gone wrong in the past in different places where it is treated as a very sort of top down, -concept of, okay, -Right.

a city mayor or whatever a regional government or maybe a national government.

I mean, depends where in the world we're looking decides, okay, we're going to do this.

And there isn't consultation or there's not enough of it.

And people, these are their neighborhoods.

They want to understand why is this happening.

And if you don't have that dialog, then you can get pushback and get conflict.

And to focus on the bits of the book Where I talk about wildlife.

For example, you can get huge amounts of wildlife conflict, because people can be afraid of what they don't know.

You know, a lot of people have fears of animals, of creepy crawlies, even those nice birds I talked about before.

If you don't have a dialog -with the people -Yeah.

whose lives are going to be affected then, it's not unreasonable for them to say, well, big changes are happening.

I don't really understand.

I'm worried about my kids.

So yes, the way that I would recommend someone doing this based on these examples I looked at is you got to have the top down.

At least support and perhaps even driving from the top.

But you've got to have that community, buy in to understand what's happening.

And crucially, why does any of this matter?

And this goes back to my point about biophilia, about the impact it can have on people's lives, you know, to connect with, a love of animals, let's say.

I mean, a lot of people have a very soft spot for animals as a concept.

And they might watch, you know, National Geographic or whatever and see amazing creatures and, you know, have some, feeling of connection to that.

But that doesn't mean that they see the animals in their daily lives in the same way, especially if for example, these are creatures that are coming in, like raiding the trash bins or something.

And so it's about, you know, recognizing like, what are the concerns that people would have and dealing with it in a mature way.

Was there an example of where that infusion of nature led to better housing, better life outcomes?

Not just I can take a walk on the beach or, have be in, you know, robed in the greenery and have my, happiness revived.

But literally the greenery element, like in the city of Lisbon, where there's been a major push on housing with the affordability crisis there.

But have there been examples of that where the infusion of the nature led to better social conditions?

More specifically.

Yeah.

Well, the obvious example for something like that is Singapore, which is, by far the kind of the leader on both of these points, like very big on social housing and looking after the society.

But they also make it a rule that you integrate all of this, all of this nature into it because they just buy into everything I was saying.

Did the nature specifically, enable them or empower them to get these better outcomes when it comes to housing?

I am sure that they would say that the housing, the housing is better because the nature is there for reasons such as, cooling, you know, if you live in a hot part of the world, the insulation impact of having greenery on or around a building can be huge.

You know, this is a country that depends on air conditioning.

Good answer.

Yeah.

Sorry.

No, I hate for us to be so quick.

We'll have to do this again.

Was there an example of a figure, an elected, a political figure who was this hermit who didn't see the value of nature?

And somehow, in the process of pushing forward your vision, what you, you know, write about in the book, they saw the light.

And there was a a public persuasion campaign that was effective in getting someone to say, who cares to, we have to act.

I'm going to confess that I can't think of any of that specific character.

I know what you mean.

I can't think of anyone off the top of my head, but going back to the more the community side, I can think of, places like, real quick story, but Tallinn, the capital of Estonia, where they're encouraging local pollinators by, for example, not cutting the grass so much and encouraging, like the native wildflowers and pollinators to come in.

The first thing that happened is you had people pushing back, going, this is a mess.

And, even this is dangerous.

And then with time, you had these same people then coming to like, defend, the program.

I think there was one time where they accidentally the grass was cut and then those same people who two years earlier were complaining, oh, why is this wild grass here?

Then were coming out and complaining, well why did you cut our lovely long grass with all the wildflowers?

And you know, there's no way for the birds to feed now and and all of this.

So.

-That's a good example.

-Yeah.

And for our viewers who want to learn more about the wild tales of Tokyo Yeah.

and Flagstaff, to just give you two examples from the book that you ought to read.

Get a copy of Wild Cities, by Chris Fitch, my guest today.

A pleasure to host you.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you so much.

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